Aloha and thank you for tuning in to another episode of Livestock Walaʻau! In this episode we will be talking with Dr. Jonathan Deenik, Soil Fertility and Soil Quality Specialist with UH Manoa. Come learn more about soil health for pasture systems.
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Aloha and thank you for tuning in to another episode of Livestock Walaʻau! In this episode we will be talking with Dr. Jonathan Deenik, Soil Fertility and Soil Quality Specialist with UH Manoa. Come learn more about soil health for pasture systems.
Please also consider completing our feedback survey at the link below!
Check out our other social media platforms!
Guest Contact Information & Resources
Thanks for listening! Check out our other social media platforms!
Aloha Today's episode is brought to you by the Western extension Risk Management Education Center. rasam, USDA NIFA and the University of Hawaii College of Tropical Agriculture and Human Resources and the livestock extension group.
Melelani Oshiro:Aloha welcome to livestock Walaau podcast aim to provide educational support information, guidance and outreach to our livestock stakeholders in Hawaii. We are your hosts Mele Oshiro and
Unknown:Shanna Sand.
Melelani Oshiro:Today we're going to be talking with Dr. Jonathan Deenik, from the University of Hawaii at Manoa. Thank you, Dr. Dennik, for joining us today.
Shannon Sand:Thank you. So Jonathan, can you give us a little bit of information about how you came to be in Hawaii and at your current position right
Johnathan Deenik:now? Okay, well, Aloha, my first and thank you for having me. I won't tell you all the long story of how I came to be in Hawaii. But basically, my wife snatched me from Central Africa some years ago. And I was actually an English teacher. So when I came here, and I was teaching English at university, I didn't like it. And I decided to go back to school and I chose of all things, soil science. So then I did my degree work here at Leeds Manoa. That's how it's come to be.
Shannon Sand:You just never left when you found your home. Right. It's
Melelani Oshiro:kind of a nice thing. Yeah, yeah.
Shannon Sand:I just feel like now I want to ask a lot of questions about your history and background because I was like, I bet it's really interesting. Sounds like you've been to a lot of places. So
Johnathan Deenik:well, it might come up. But let's not get let's not get too sidetracked. Because let's try
Shannon Sand:not to get too much into the weeds. Yeah. So can you give us a little information? And kind of background in history of some of the research and outreach that you've done related? Since me you do? I mean, soil health and Soil Sciences is your area of expertise.
Johnathan Deenik:So, so yeah, so I have a three way split in my assignment. As a faculty member, I have an extension, FTE 50% actually is extension. So when have you all, and 25% research and 25% teaching? My extension work has kind of a wide range, but focused on nutrient management at first. So helping producers make decisions about what sort of amendment nutrient amendments to make, and how much and when and whatnot, the need, so a lot to do with soil health, soil testing, and well that soil soil fertility. Then I did spend quite a few number of years working with Mark Doran and his group of extension agents on the Marianas grazing Academy. So we traveled to the Western Pacific. And that was mainly looking at, you know, the benefits of pasture lands to protect the soil resource and at the same time, provide sustenance and a way of life. And more recently, my research is focused on developing quantitative soil health tests, and helping producers from ranchers all the way to vegetable growers, and even NRCS done on interpreting and making sense of soil health and what practices might enhance soil theory that sort of in brief. Yeah.
Melelani Oshiro:Yeah, that's very brief. I think I first met Jonathan working with Mark Thorne on the Marianas Islands and doing those projects where I had learned so much from being you know, in the field, and just looking at the environment of plants that are there and stuff. And, you know, I've remembered a lot of things from down there. So and just looking at like the ferns, I remember I was talking about the ferns and how that's indicative of different things that's going on with your soil and kind of the health it's there. And, as you said, the fertility so can you want to talk about some of those things that we can look at just, you know, a lot of people come in, they're like, oh, I need to do a soil sample. And I'm like, Well, why do you need to do so example? So are there indicators that they should be looking at in their pasture areas or grazing areas that kind of tells them Yeah, something might be going on? Or no, it's, you know, going other direction?
Johnathan Deenik:Well, that's, you know, that's the challenge I think of managing rangelands is, is we're talking about very large areas. So you're kind of, well, it depends on what kind of resources You have but to start with, I think having an understanding of the soil map and maybe, you know, okay this is the kind of soil that the pasture is on will give you an indication of some of the nutrient opportunities and limitations. But remember, grasses and forages are often quite adaptable to many, many types of soil conditions. But we know that some forages, certain forages are much better than others. And, for example, I'm not good with all the names but working with Glen especially in mark when we would travel to different pastures and look out on the landscape I would know the soil type and let's say it's acid could the acid low fertility and sure enough, if the if the pasture had not been managed, or managed in a way to improve the forages just left to be whatever growth grew there naturally, you could see some of these acid. Low quality forages, I think I remember Glen talking about kilo grass and sour grass and some of these lower quality forages. So, I think the forage itself can give you an indication of some of the fertility. And but you can, you can manage that by going out and selecting for higher quality forages that may be adapted to those low pH soils with low nutrients. So, that's I think that's usually the the most practical and least costly approach, although sea grasses is not cheap. Yeah. lining and you know, putting soil amendments on large pastures is very expensive.
Melelani Oshiro:Yeah. And labor intensive to in some of the areas you can't really even access with machinery. The only option is to hand do it, which, you know, that can be too so. Yeah, so you know, I guess that that was one of the things I noticed is some of the forage grasses and things that come up in there. But there's also like, just looking at the soil itself. And you mentioned the maps now, where where is our how do people access and find out where what soil type they might have in those particular areas? That's something that they can access online, correct?
Johnathan Deenik:Yes, they can. But well, the most useful, you can get it right on your phone here. It's called soil web. Oh, it's an app. It's a free app. It was developed by University of California Davis in cooperation with the NRCS. And so you can go to your app store and download is just called soil web sol, sol. Edie and then install it on I think it can go on an iPhone or an Android. Yeah, it has GPS, as long as you have a GPS enabled iPhone or phone, it will acquire your location and then tell you the soil type. That's nice.
Shannon Sand:Wondering if it was like NRCS, or USGS that you got it from or like, yeah,
Johnathan Deenik:the only challenge with that one is that they give the technical terms. You know, they tell you the Soul series name. Whitening series, give you a description that most people can understand. But yeah, you have to read. It's not it's not real, quick, easily accessible information that any person could use, you would have to have a little bit of facility with some common soil science terms and terminology. A graduate student and I developed another but it's not an app. Now. It is that it's a web page. Oh, no. And it's not GPS enabled meaning but what you can do is if you're at works best on on a laptop, or a desktop, it's called Hawaii soil Atlas. And you can go open up. Let's say you're talking about the Big Island and you're interested in let's say your polo Mocha, and you want to know what kind of soil is my land on my ranch land on you can open up this is Hawaii soil Atlas, and then zoom to your location just by using a Google Earth image and then click in various places of that and it'll give you the name of the soil and then the description is in simple English. You don't have to have a knowledge of soil science terminology, but it's not mobile phone. So you got to do it at home. You can do it on your mobile phone. But it's a little bit not. It wasn't made for a mobile phone. Right?
Melelani Oshiro:Right, right, right. The soil web app, do you have to be at the location? Or are you able to put in the if you know the coordinates or whatnot of a location? Can you also put that in? I know, I've went out there and a location and looked up that app, but I don't actually remember if you can actually put in coordinates for a location?
Johnathan Deenik:No, no, you can on your you can, you can go ahead and choose a location. Okay, the app I'm not, I have not done it with the app yet. But you can go online, you know, just a web page on your desktop or laptop. Pull up that web page. It's not the app, it's the web page in any location one. Type in, I'm not sure if polo would show up. But if you typed in Hanukkah, it would die. And then you could just move the image to the where you want it. So yeah, you can. Okay. But I'm not sure about on a mobile phone, whether that website is adaptive, mobile.
Melelani Oshiro:So outside of looking at that in the forage grasses, we talked about that as using that as an indicator of sort of what's going on at the soil level, is there any physical characteristics of a soil that we can look at to say, Okay, this is, you know, what's going on? And you're good, bad? Yeah. Is there any way anything else that we should look at?
Johnathan Deenik:Well, let's maybe we will get, we can talk about the color and the structure that we go to, before we go there. That may be the first place to start to get a sense for what kind of soil might I expect at a given location? Is to begin with thinking about well, first of all, what is this? Are we on what Island area? So you know, it depends, right, but let's I don't know, your your, your audience could be on any Island. Right. All right. So let's begin, I think rainfall, rainfall, the amount of rainfall the site receives is a really important something to consider early on. Let's say it's not a young lava flow, like we have on the Big Island or certain parts of Maui, let's say you know, you have a soil, you can see that it's soil, sand, silt and clay and it's not, you know, these are soils fine under the guidance. And the first thing you would say, Okay, well, is it a high rainfall area, how we're talking most let's start with the ease. Let's pick anywhere. Let's go to Waimea, okay, let's say you're in Waimea, okay, or cooler? Both live. We'll start with these two types of locations. Number one is those areas are geologically Young. They're quite young. Right. So they've been influenced the soils that have developed there were formed from volcanic ash. And they form a unique type of soil called endosomes. Now, then, the next thing you got to consider, well, how much rainfall does this this site receive? Okay, so let's, let's start with, let's start with Parker Ranch lands just outside of Louisville, right you're, you're on their pasture lands. In the really dry areas is pretty shallow soil, but with a lot of rocks, because it hasn't been much rain to weather. If you go out on the Kohala road was Kohala. Outside of why man, still pretty dry there, but it gets a little more rainfall. Those soils are deeper, you probably noticed it and they're really light and fluffy. You dig into them. And they're really high in nutrients. The reason they're so high in nutrients is because they've weathered just enough to produce to release calcium and magnesium and potassium from the parent material. And that now is available for the plants to grow. And it goes nice, light fluffy signs. If you go the other direction towards Eleni, and then now down towards Hanukkah, it's the same parent is the same volcanic ash, but it rains a lot more. And so as you go into a dry wetter region, the rainfall has an accelerating weather. And that acceleration of weathering has leached out a lot of those elements that nourish plants calcium, magnesium, potassium, and left behind iron oxide like clays that kind of hold nutrients from the plant phosphorus for example, if hasn't given up. So rainfall will dictate whether you have a nutrient rich near neutral soil versus nutrient depleted more acidic soil. So the higher rainfall, you can expect less nutrients in the soil more acidic cynically. And on the other end, in the moderate rainfall the sweet spot, you know, you have have enough rain, we're talking, you know, a rainfall from 30 to 60 inches of rain a year is like the sweet spot. Okay, once you get above 80 inches of rainfall a year, that's, you know, down in Hornell, guys 120 If you go down towards you 200 inches of rain, right? So those are not as fertile as the soils and why man? Yeah, the same sort of logic can be used on all it gets a little bit more complicated depending on the aspect, right, steepness of the slope, how water moves within the soil, so that gets a little bit more complicated. But you can generalize, typically, lower rainfall tends to be near neutral soils. Typically enriched in nutrients. Their limitation might be their shower, if it's too dry, or there's not enough rain during certain times of the year to feed the grasses that need to grow. But as soon as it rains, ah, those forages take off in the in that near neutral because there's a lot of nutrients feed, and you've probably noticed that. So I don't know if that helps. It gives you a sense rainfall, the climate is very important. And the age of that landscape.
Shannon Sand:Yeah, I would imagine that relates to a lot of challenges with your job because the climate is so different. In so many places on on.
Johnathan Deenik:Yeah, it changes very quickly. Well, very, we're lucky that people before us spend a lot of time mapping the islands. Yeah, they need to be updated. The Big Island got an update in the late 90s and early 2000s, which is really good. But Mali, for example, the soil map needs to be updated because Maui or Oahu. Hawaii ego's the data that are used to map those soils and that survey activities. Sometimes were done as far back as the 50s.
Shannon Sand:Wow, I was just thinking maybe it was the 70s. That's even further back than I thought it was? Wow.
Johnathan Deenik:Well, some of the original data, you know, the soil surveys were published in 1773, making 73. But you can imagine that some of the data, the mapping exercises, really the fieldwork was actually begun in the 50s.
Melelani Oshiro:Right, right, right.
Johnathan Deenik:You know, the NRCS has an NRCS has a nice record of all of this, you can go look at when the survey was done to a particular location. Needless to say, it's time to, to, I think, put some resources towards updating our soil maps, it's probably not going to happen in the near future, because it costs a lot of money to make this to update a soil map. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Melelani Oshiro:I can imagine it costs a lot of money and a lot of labor to get all that stuff in there, then
Johnathan Deenik:less students studying soil science. So we're and especially that area of soil sciences become quite, it's quite difficult to find somebody who's well trained in soil soil mapping, so certainly not Not, not like it used to be.
Melelani Oshiro:Well, yeah, I can like shine instead, I'm sure like our climate does, it plays such a huge role in anything from RSO quality to you know, in health and even the pastures? So when at some point, then would you say it's worth more people, a lot of people just come in typically and ask questions after they run a soil test. And I'm like, Well, what are you why are you testing me, though? So when would a soil testing be something valid for them to start to do think about and spend that money on doing something like that? in their area?
Johnathan Deenik:Yeah, I think that's a good question. I mean, you know, I mean, you want to, if you want to, a soil test is used for a couple of things. First of all, it seems to do a diagnosis. What do you have? Is there a problem? So that's the first step right, you go out to pasture said you've got to collect quite a number of samples. So that because you know, pastures are large. So let's Say you have a 10 acre paddock, you probably want to collect around 50 samples in that 10 acres, and then put it all into one if you only want to, you know if you just want the average over the whole, right, but if you know this part of the pasture has a certain look, it's got a certain low quality forages in this past this part of the pasture has looks a lot better, then you would want to sample both and oil issue that's causing the differences in forage growth. So anyway, collect the sample, do your best to get as good coverage as possible, then you get some numbers. And you have to decide, okay, well, the thing that I think the most important advice, or at least what I've learned, working with range managers, is it's not going to be easy to change the soil at that scale. Right, because the amount of amendments that will be required is usually very, very high. And the return may not be. So I'm not an economist, but, you know, let's say, you know, the pH of your soil is right, not right. Oh, and somebody tells you Oh, well, a pH should be closer to six. Okay, well, that means you got to add, you know, four tons of lime per acre. Yeah. Yeah. 10 acres has 4040 times, right. 40 tons of live is not cheap, then. Okay. Are you guarantee that your grasses will grow better and be higher quality? No, because you probably the better approach is okay, I know my condition. Let's say it's an acid soil with low nutrients. Typical of the Hamakua coast. Typical of, you know, wetter regions of the eye, you know, like, let's talk about Eastern Oregon. There are pasture lands up there, right? Those soils is pretty high rainfall, those are gonna be acid, low nutrient soils. Well, it's just not economical to go out and buy tons and tons of lime. Because you're not actually at current prices. Yeah, yeah. So so then the other thing is, well, you know, if you've got a bad situation when the forages aren't growing well, well, then you have to go to the next best thing I think would be well, are there affordable options for grasses that are adapted to those low nutrient conditions? Yeah. Signal grass, for example, right, is I learned that from Glenn in acid soils, single grass, mulatto grass, for they can tolerate low nutrient status. But then again, as many pointed out earlier, okay, you locate you identify a species that might improve your pasture quality. Now, you've got to go by the seat, which is not going to be cheap, probably. And then you've got to somehow spread it on the land and make sure that it that it takes hold and be competitive. So I think a lot of it has to do with how you manage your cows, right. On a pasture system even, you know, yeah, that don't leave to the rain specialists. Oil. It's not so easy to at that scale is going to be an expensive vessel.
Melelani Oshiro:Yeah. And I that's a that's a good point, Jonathan, because I think first things a lot of people want to do is start soil testing, and then use those results to kind of these make decisions on what they want to do when they have the animals there. That's sometimes the cheaper option to manage the animals a little bit differently to kind of help improve those soils, right, and you start to do that you start to change the dynamics of the forages that are there, sometimes you'll get better forages that start to come in and those ones that weren't so doing so well, because of the management system can now come back right and then also put inputs back into soil. So I mean, I think we kind of jumped into the next section that we actually wanted to talk about and kind of soil health in our pasture systems, but not that I mean, that's it. The impacts, I guess that we see. Right. And so outside of doing those types of things, what other benefits I mean, some people do fertilize, right. In some situations you can what what impacts and what's your thoughts about doing that types of management into the pasture systems and how that impacts the soil health?
Johnathan Deenik:Well, I don't have a lot of experience, but we did do a fairly large scale trial some years ago. And we we were working on very low fertility soils on the Hamakua coast, polio Malka area Oh, no acid, low nutrients, very low nutrients, same similar type of situation on kawaii, very low nutrients, acid soils. And we put in a trial that says Well, let's see if we raise the pH. So add lime, will it have an impact on forage production and growth. And on top of that, we also had a nitrogen treatment. And lining didn't help at all. You could line and change the pH raise the PH from 4.9 to near seven, or 6.5. And it had no impact on forage quality or growth. So the lining the pH is is not that important factor actually, the factor they did the strategy that did really increase forage production and quality was adding nitrogen urea. But you know, it's a very temporary short lived effect right and you add nitrogen now it's gone. first rains that come on, you'll get a huge boost in grass production. But, you know, cut it twice, or you haven't you graze it a couple of times, that that effect disappears pretty quickly, because that nitrogen is pretty rapidly taken up by the guinea grass, for example, in blue, but, you know, a year later, that effect is gone. It might we didn't have we didn't do this trial for over long term. But we get noticed that in at least in the two to three year timeframe, you've not only got bigger Guinea grass biomass a lot more biomass also reduced the unfavorable for it. So, you know Guinea grass was out competed the others if that was what you wanted. And I think you need grass management well is a good good forage quality forage. So you do get an added benefit that you you out compete the less desirable species. So in the short term, if you want to if you want to give a boost, before the rainy season, you can spread Nuria here, but that, that the effect is only short lived for biomass production, but it could give you a the preferred forage an advantage over the others that might last outlast the fertilizer. So, I mean, that's a conventional approach, right, urea not all ranchers are might be. So you know, if you want to increase the nitrogen, protein value of your species, have you have your pasture? You know, planting leguminous forage is also a good option. Yes, will, over time build up the quality and the health of the system. But it's hard to get those legumes to take. They might get out competed by lead species. So another approach is if if you do have access to compost, spreading compost on pastures, especially poor quality pastures, will will enhance the growth and the quality of the forages. But it's expensive, right? You know, and to have that have any meaningful effect. Really, you would have to add in it at the minimum, minimum 10 tons per acre. And probably if you want to observe an impact, like 20 tons per acre. Wow. That's a lot. Yeah. Um, you need to first of all you need the source of compost. Yeah. is quite limited in especially where we have all of the large grazing operations. Yeah. And then spreading, you know, the landscapes are often not not ready. So there are a lot of challenges, a lot of challenges. So there are also other approaches that overall improve, including improved the Cena varieties, which can build soil, the value of your soil and increase protein in the system. And overall, as long as you manage those leucaena correctly, and don't let them get too big and out of control. So, with every option, there are the opportunities and the limitations,
Melelani Oshiro:right, right. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah, um, I think we could just continue to pick your brain about things. But yeah, I think that's, I think one of the important understandings is when people are doing so testing is not going to be a golden ticket to answer their questions, you know, it'll help. I mean, in some situations, like you're saying, if you're you're trying to diagnose and having some issues going on, but those are the important things I think I like, want somebody to grasp permit is that it's not going to be a telltale all of what's going on in a pasture system. It's just a piece of the puzzle.
Johnathan Deenik:Key. So tests are valuable. But they may not, you know, what they'll do is they'll guide you on what's the best decision to make, you know, what, what is, you know, might guide you on which forage is to try to get in there, or adapted to that situation? Yeah, yeah.
Melelani Oshiro:So and So testing may their particular elements in there, I mean, nitrogen is one for sure, people should be testing for what are other indicators that they should be looking for when they submit samples to be tested?
Johnathan Deenik:Well, I mean, you know, if you if you want to get a sense of the fertility, the overall fertility of the of the sample, the soil, your pasture, soil, pH is really the first place to start because it, you know, once you know, the pH, things usually follow in line with that. So know pH, soils will typically be low in calcium, and potassium. There'll be low in phosphorus, and soils. And the other elements are not so easy to interpret for pasture. Because you can have pastures growing really well. And the soil tests might tell you have low zinc. What that tells you is that whatever forage is growing there. If it hasn't been manipulated, it's usually quite well adapted to those kinds of situations. So I think the soil cast what it tells you is, is what what type of forage would be best suited for these kinds of conditions. So you know, if you if you have a soil test that has really, really low nutrients, and you want to plant kikuyu grass when you've got a problem, because it's not, it's not adapted to really low nutrient soils, you know, it'll do better in the other queer grass is pretty, it's pretty. Pretty Actually, I'll take that back because you can have kikuyu grass is going to be controlled more by climate, right? Yeah. And it can it can exist in pretty low fertility soils. Nalani, for example, those soils up in male any they they grow pretty good clear grass, right? Yeah. But but the soil test was saying, man, it's acid soil. Yeah, low calcium. So I'm, you know, gives you an idea. What's out there, but grasses are pretty tolerant of low nutrients. Okay, good. Very good. tropics. Yeah. We're talking about the mainland. Right, right. Yes, definitely
Melelani Oshiro:talking about here in Hawaii and how these relate to our pasture systems here, correct. Well, thank you, Jonathan. I feel like there's that's just a good wealth of information that I think a lot of people can start to take and think about their pasture systems. And you know how to best use those soil testing in or to help their production systems. Sister, Shannon, did you have anything else you wanted to add Janice, The Economist. So she's the one that she's playing right now. Right now, like, how many times did you just say, for me to put on the pasture, I have to get about 50 people to go and spread that because I can't drive a tractor there. So I mean, that's a big, big challenge here, when you start to talk about adding you know, things into your pasture systems, not just on the fertilizer side or lighting, but even seating. You know, we're dealing with two lines, but a bug in corner, taking out so much of the forage grasses and trying to mitigate that and help people to receive their pastures is, you know, getting the seed is one thing and then putting it out there is a whole nother challenge sometimes. So just a lot of things to think about not to discourage anybody to want to be out there. But just things that you should consider if you're going into it. So
Johnathan Deenik:yeah, and then the other thing just to maybe is we have a lot of really, really experienced ranchers out there who are pretty quiet and humble. But yeah, they've they're doing a great job in keeping the land highly productive. Absolutely. learn by experience right by Just opposite careful observation and taking notes. Yeah, so I think, you know, managing pastures and keeping ranching as a strong area of agriculture in Hawaii is really important because it protects our land. Use us wide open, beautiful space. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Melelani Oshiro:I have to agree. Definitely. I have to agree. They're great stewards around that. And we definitely love those wide open spaces to keep it that way. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Jonathan, for joining us and sharing with us today. Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah.
Shannon Sand:Is there anything else that you have coming up that you want to talk about or anything exciting going on?
Johnathan Deenik:Well, maybe one thing is, you know, my colleague and I, Susan Crow, you may have heard of she she was Yeah. Yeah, somehow send out that official can bring a pretty sizable amount of money. And a good chunk of that money is really going to support their boy cattlemen is association. So, you know, those are things that are very important. And so we're looking at various ways to help the ranchers keep their lands productive, healthy and contributing to, to reducing the negative impacts of climate change, right, by keeping carbon in the soil. Yeah. So there are some great ideas out there, you know, incorporating cooler, Co Op plantings into pasture, which really, I think that's really cool. And then, you know, various ways of keeping that land. Yeah. covered, right. Covered? Yeah.
Shannon Sand:Yeah, that's the key to a lot of it. Right. So no, I
Johnathan Deenik:am looking forward to, to working with the various people in the Kettlemans Association, great group of people. It should be exciting. So then over the next five years, maybe we'll see if we're able to do anything.
Melelani Oshiro:I'm sure. Yeah, we're looking forward to that project. And we got to listen to Dr. Crowe was talk at the Hawaii Calvin's conference. So yeah, very exciting. And congratulations to you guys. All in the getting the funding. So that's
Johnathan Deenik:really a kakou effort, indeed. involve lots of people from all walks of life. So yeah, it's gonna be fun.
Shannon Sand:Yeah. Pretty amazing. It's very exciting to hear. Yeah.
Johnathan Deenik:And there's some soil science in there, too.
Shannon Sand:Yeah. I'm sure there's some soils. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for joining us today, Jonathan.
Johnathan Deenik:Good to be with you. And I look forward to seeing you out in those nice, wide open pasture lands on big island
Shannon Sand:Oh, yeah.
Melelani Oshiro:Yeah. Yeah,
Shannon Sand:it will be nice. So yeah, yeah. Well, we hope our listeners found this informative and that it will be useful to them. Also, if you've not done so already, please be sure to fill out our feedback faster. Let us know your thoughts about this podcast. So we know what you would like to hear more of
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